Real of fake ?

[KAYZ1]

2 hours ago, Nute said:

I realise that, I have an electrolysis machine which generates one H and 2O's from a given volume of water, but it uses lots of electricity to do it.  

In an electric car one uses clean power (mostly) to charge the thing up and off you go. There are transmission losses in getting it from generation to point of use, around 10% but it depends on lots of things so could be less. The electric motor in an electric car is around 90% efficient. Overall transmitting and using electricity in a car is pretty efficient. 

For an H car again you need to use electricity... to produce H gas, then you need to liquify it. H needs to be cooled to circa -250DegC to liquify it, process which uses over a quarter of the energy in the H to achieve. Then you need to transport it, still at -250C and store it, still at -250C (I assume?) until it goes into a car fuel tank as gas. The fuel cell/ engine is more efficient than an ICE engine but less so than an electric motor. I think they are 60% efficient? So you lose a big chunk of the energy to make the H then liquify the stuff, then store it, only to use it in an engine which itself is about 60% efficient...or am I missing something here...?

That seems about right to me..

[Buckster]

9 hours ago, Nute said:

I realise that, I have an electrolysis machine which generates one H and 2O's from a given volume of water, but it uses lots of electricity to do it.  

In an electric car one uses clean power (mostly) to charge the thing up and off you go. There are transmission losses in getting it from generation to point of use, around 10% but it depends on lots of things so could be less. The electric motor in an electric car is around 90% efficient. Overall transmitting and using electricity in a car is pretty efficient. 

For an H car again you need to use electricity... to produce H gas, then you need to liquify it. H needs to be cooled to circa -250DegC to liquify it, process which uses over a quarter of the energy in the H to achieve. Then you need to transport it, still at -250C and store it, still at -250C (I assume?) until it goes into a car fuel tank as gas. The fuel cell/ engine is more efficient than an ICE engine but less so than an electric motor. I think they are 60% efficient? So you lose a big chunk of the energy to make the H then liquify the stuff, then store it, only to use it in an engine which itself is about 60% efficient...or am I missing something here...?

The best way to do it is from seawater as high salinity makes the transfer process easier and more efficient, if you then use solar to produce the electrical charge needed to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen then is becomes sustainable, the amount of energy produced from the hydrogen fuel cell is more than could be produced by having solar on the car. You can use aluminium in sea water as well as it reacts with the sea water to produce hydrogen and aluminium hydroxide, the hydrogen can be collected, there is plenty of scrap aluminium around from all the Indian frames that keep breaking. There are other ways of extracting hydrogen as well including direct water splitting. Interestingly it is more efficient to use an ICE to produce electricity than to drive a car directly so a short term solution is a hybrid drive which some car makers are starting to use, electric motors are about 80%efficient as opposed to ICE only which is about 30% on energy transfer.

[boboneleg]

23 minutes ago, Buckster said:

, there is plenty of scrap aluminium around from all the Indian frames that keep breaking

[Marcel le Moose Fondler]

11 hours ago, Nute said:

I realise that, I have an electrolysis machine which generates one H and 2O's from a given volume of water, but it uses lots of electricity to do it.  

In an electric car one uses clean power (mostly) to charge the thing up and off you go. There are transmission losses in getting it from generation to point of use, around 10% but it depends on lots of things so could be less. The electric motor in an electric car is around 90% efficient. Overall transmitting and using electricity in a car is pretty efficient. 

For an H car again you need to use electricity... to produce H gas, then you need to liquify it. H needs to be cooled to circa -250DegC to liquify it, process which uses over a quarter of the energy in the H to achieve. Then you need to transport it, still at -250C and store it, still at -250C (I assume?) until it goes into a car fuel tank as gas. The fuel cell/ engine is more efficient than an ICE engine but less so than an electric motor. I think they are 60% efficient? So you lose a big chunk of the energy to make the H then liquify the stuff, then store it, only to use it in an engine which itself is about 60% efficient...or am I missing something here...?

Hydrogen if ever used for cars will not be stored by freezing it to - 250....even to transport the stuff...it will be high pressure vessel...

[Marcel le Moose Fondler]

1 hour ago, Buckster said:

The best way to do it is from seawater as high salinity makes the transfer process easier and more efficient, if you then use solar to produce the electrical charge needed to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen then is becomes sustainable, the amount of energy produced from the hydrogen fuel cell is more than could be produced by having solar on the car. You can use aluminium in sea water as well as it reacts with the sea water to produce hydrogen and aluminium hydroxide, the hydrogen can be collected, there is plenty of scrap aluminium around from all the Indian frames that keep breaking. There are other ways of extracting hydrogen as well including direct water splitting. Interestingly it is more efficient to use an ICE to produce electricity than to drive a car directly so a short term solution is a hybrid drive which some car makers are starting to use, electric motors are about 80%efficient as opposed to ICE only which is about 30% on energy transfer.

There is serious talk underway for Canada to be in on this project if it ever rolls around...we have and endless supply to generate electricity...with power dams in northern quebec ...manic 5 region...and aluminum mines galore..in the same area...

[Saul]

1 hour ago, Buckster said:

The best way to do it is from seawater as high salinity makes the transfer process easier and more efficient, if you then use solar to produce the electrical charge needed to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen then is becomes sustainable, the amount of energy produced from the hydrogen fuel cell is more than could be produced by having solar on the car. You can use aluminium in sea water as well as it reacts with the sea water to produce hydrogen and aluminium hydroxide, the hydrogen can be collected, there is plenty of scrap aluminium around from all the Indian frames that keep breaking. There are other ways of extracting hydrogen as well including direct water splitting. Interestingly it is more efficient to use an ICE to produce electricity than to drive a car directly so a short term solution is a hybrid drive which some car makers are starting to use, electric motors are about 80%efficient as opposed to ICE only which is about 30% on energy transfer.

Fuzzy memory but I read somewhere about a project to use solar power to create Hydrogen using solar power in the oil rich Arab States.  No shortage of sunshine there I suppose.  

[Catteeclan]

6 hours ago, Saul said:

Fuzzy memory but I read somewhere about a project to use solar power to create Hydrogen using solar power in the oil rich Arab States.  No shortage of sunshine there I suppose.  

Sounds about right as they won't be earning so much from the oil sales.

[Six30]

11 hours ago, Buckster said:

The best way to do it is from seawater as high salinity makes the transfer process easier and more efficient, if you then use solar to produce the electrical charge needed to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen then is becomes sustainable, the amount of energy produced from the hydrogen fuel cell is more than could be produced by having solar on the car. You can use aluminium in sea water as well as it reacts with the sea water to produce hydrogen and aluminium hydroxide, the hydrogen can be collected, there is plenty of scrap aluminium around from all the Indian frames that keep breaking. There are other ways of extracting hydrogen as well including direct water splitting. Interestingly it is more efficient to use an ICE to produce electricity than to drive a car directly so a short term solution is a hybrid drive which some car makers are starting to use, electric motors are about 80%efficient as opposed to ICE only which is about 30% on energy transfer.

[Nute]

10 hours ago, Marcel le Moose Fondler said:

Hydrogen if ever used for cars will not be stored by freezing it to - 250....even to transport the stuff...it will be high pressure vessel...

Surely to get sufficient energy density for practical storage for refuelling its going to have to be stored at massive pressures, which must take a ton of energy in the compression process? I have cylinders rated to 300 bar and they are pretty chunky, I'd imagine you are going to need to go a long way beyond that to make it practical. 

[Marcel le Moose Fondler]

2 hours ago, Nute said:

Surely to get sufficient energy density for practical storage for refuelling its going to have to be stored at massive pressures, which must take a ton of energy in the compression process? I have cylinders rated to 300 bar and they are pretty chunky, I'd imagine you are going to need to go a long way beyond that to make it practical. 

I have no idea if tanks that large can be made today...like to transport the stuff on cargo ships...it would probably go off like a nuke if one of those exploded in a port...for now I don't think it's to practical ...they have I think like 4 hydrogen fueling station running in Alberta at the moment for cars...